I have two baths, a foyer and kitchen with vinyl. It is glued down pretty good, haviving hard time scraping it off. Can I tile over vinyl or do I need to remove it?
Yes, you can. The concrete won't "give" like a wood subfloor. That is why durock is recommended on the latter. If you have a lot of "give" the tile may break over time.
You're friendly folks at Lowe's or Home Depot can give tips/instructions on how to tile and what to use.
Here's one tip: instead of just starting to randomly lay the tile, consider the doorways into the room, and line the tile up so it will be centered through the major doorways.
Good Luck!
I imagine your advice is sincere. However, I take any advice from a professional with a grain of salt. Professionals by the very definition of the word are trying to make money. I found it very enlightening to read that after a hurricane in Florida, it was found that the houses built by students at a community college withstood the storm much better than those built by professionals! The reason the student's houses withstood the storm better was because they did things by the book and did not try to cut corners by using less nails, framing, or connectors. There is nothing wrong with going over vinyl. Some professionals won't do this simply because it is not the "normal" way they do it and thus would require more thought, labor, or both.
Heaven forbid you do work like a PROFESSIONAL This is what gives rehabbers a bad name.
If you want a tile job that will last 50-100 years (and it can), going over vinyl is not the way to get it. If you want it to last just long enough to sell the house, then whatever, you don't care about the right way to do it anyway.
I'm sorry if I offended you. However, I would like to hear from someone who has put down tile over vinyl many years ago and seen the long term results. True, there is some slight give to vinyl, but it's not much. Unless you are going over a slab you are going to have some give, and houses settle and shift under the best of circumstances. That's why they add acrylic to grout. As far as the word "professional" goes, in reality it means nothing besides telling you the person does it for a living. It tells you nothing about quality. I would agree that it generally looks better, or else the person would not be in business for long. However, I would have much preferred living in one of the houses that withstood Andrew, than owning one of the piles of debris that was built by a professional contractor. Now I'm not saying that all or most professionals do poor work, although the Andrew study certainly was pointing in that direction. I'm simply pointing out that it is a combination of individual skills, experience and character that make for good work.
Advice that one should read the opinions of others in any given field seems good advice to me. Methods and techniques change all the time. It's good to hear others' opinions.
Also, I wouldn't confuse subcontractors who build tract homes with any notion of professionalism. Your observations are accurate there. The "builder's" of these homes want low-cost subs moving fast emphasizing production over qualtiy.
This is not your typical general contractor. Don't confuse the two. That's a whole other line of business.
Laying tile over vinyl is fine. Problems that creep up with tile are often due to improper water / thinset mixture, improper amount of thinset on the substrate / tile, temperature...ie. laying tile in the winter in a new home where the temperature is not controlled, not taping joints when using substrates that require such.........I can go on and on why tile fails........laying it over a vinyl floor that is glued and nailed down is not one of them.
I have seen people put tile over OSB (which I do not recommend because of woods natural ability to move and breath), I seen them put it over concrete slabs (which I do not recommend because concrete often cracks and same will often be where your grout lines are) I seen it put over other substrates without checking to see what sort of deflection the existing floor currently has.......I can go on and on.
Anyone that thinks that a floor has to have zero deflection to put tile down know nothing about laying tile.
Houses will breath and move to a certain point.......that's just basic building 101.
I am amazed that many people think that putting an additional layer of a substrate will make the floor stronger without considering what is carrying the substrate.
It comes down to the fact that the substrate should be in fairly good condition and the subfloor should not be overloaded. If those conditions are met then you are in good shape.
There are various methods and materials one can use to complete a project. Most people are comfortable with what they have seen work in the past....which is fine....others are willing to try alternative methods which, when using common sense, often have proven to be better then what has gone before.
Tile contractors are no different then any other contractor when it comes to the methods they imploy in which to complete a project.
If a person wants to rip up the vinyl flooring, along with the luan that is under it....then feel free to waste your time.
If you want to add additional weight to the floor system then check the joist size, spacing and span to ensure you are not adding any more deflection then that which is acceptable for tile.
Im curious.....of those that say not to lay tile over vinyl............1)how many actually lay tile for a living........2)how many have actually laid it over any substrate other then durrock or hardiboard......3)how many have laid it over vinyl and it failed?
I would be real interested in nbr 3........I would wager that any failure if at all was not because the vinyl but due to some other principle that was not met.
In my experience with vinyl over concrete you take the vinyl up. Using a razor scraper (4" width)...zip..zip...it's gone. Concrete makes a real nice substrate for tile.
My true trade was plumbing. I served a three year toil and boil while going to highschool My dear grandfather did not like the look on my face said I was beginning to act and talk like all the neighbors. This was Beverly HIlls Calif in the 30's. So he apprenticed me to a plumber and I learned the trade. Missed a lot of surfing and some great parties but in good times and bad times I could always make a living. When I resigned from the Air Force and became a civilian I bought houses, moved in and started fixing them up. I cannot think of any crime in the construction business that I did not commit.
As to the present instance. I bought this dummy little house in West Hollywood and moved in and started to work. Usualy the first attack was in the bathroom. So I washed the nice Vinyl laid out my tile, did not snap a line, did not line on the door openings. I just started laying tile. The worst job you have ever seen. You could see the waves across the floor. I sold the house at a profit and moved on. I was doing about six a year and holding down a day job in a mortgage co.
One night I came home to my latest project and there was an older Italian gentlemen waiting to talk to me. He yelled and screamed and called me every name in the book. English, Latin,Armaic and Italian. Seems he had bought that first little house and he desired my imediate death. Seems he was raised setting tile in Italy and after he stopped spitting all over me. I agreed to come and look at the job and make an adjustment. That is if I desired to continue living. So I went back looked at the job, counted the pop ups, the cracks along the grout line etc. etc. This is California and most of the early houses way back in the 20's were built by Gypsis late at night and how shall I put it, they move.
Long and short for the next week I spent every night working on pulling up the tile and making proper corrections to the sub flooring and thin set etc. etc. etc. The old man never bent over. He had a little stick and he would tap me and instruct.
I took it. I wanted to learn, besides I did not yet have enough money to hire a real tile setter.
The surface must be solid, it must be cured it must be sanded out so that the tile will bite. You must know what you are doing and most important it is an art.
At the end the floor was perfect. I had sore hands my back hurt and my knees oh my god I thought I was in a Seminary praying every day. I still have my notes on what that mean old man taught me. I have utilized his knowledge many many times instructing others who worked in my prior crews. Everynow and then someone would come along from nowhere and have the golden hands.
Hmmm, well *I* have not personally committed the sin of laying tile directly over vinyl, BUT I've seen the results. One good example - my friend's (ex)husband laid tile directly over a vinyl floor in their kitchen. Within a year not only the grout but the tile was full of cracks, they literally shoveled that tile out of there in pieces.
In my experience, it only takes doing something wrong ONE time to realize it's no shortcut, and it's easier to just do it right the first time.
No, I'm not a pro but I am a perfectionist. I've fully tiled (walls and floors) six bathrooms, I've laid stone tiles, I've done countertops. I like to think each tile job I do is a little better than the one before it, and (as with any construction job) the prep is everything.
Thanks y'all for all the good info. Today I tried again to scrape off the two layers of vinyl after an hour I did'nt get very www.far.I pick the small bathroom and said to myself if this is to mush trouble then I will tile over the rest. On the way home I stopped at a rental store and found out then have a machine that scrapes the vinyl off the sub floor, so for 48.00 $ a day I am going to try it next week. I well let you know how it works out.
Tile over vinyl only after - installing a cement board type substrate over the vinyl, attaching the cement board to the flooring under the vinyl with screws.
Can you attach cement board over this vinyl floor with screws? - No you can't because you have a cement slab under it.
Therefore you can't tile over it without removing the vinyl first.
Some things to know -
1) Removing vinyl over a cement slab is relatively easy to do. They make a razor sharp scraper on a stick for this. Find it and you will find your vinyl gone very quickly.
2) A cement slab with no cracks is just about the most perfect surface you can have to put tile over.
It all comes down to what you are trying to accomplish. I can paint over rotten wood siding without scraping out the rotten wood, filling and sanding the void. The results will be looking pretty good for about a week, but after that...
Its the same with this project. You could just tile right over the vinyl, but with time...
It depends on what you want to accomplish, do you want to long term solution or do you just want to pass on the problem to somebody else?
Yes, you can tile over it.
I just did it.
Prep.
Sand floor first
Even though it is glued down, nail the floor as if you were putting down durrock or hardiboard.
Use an upgrade thinset.....flexbond, surebond, etc......not the cheap $9.00 bag thinset.
Set tile, grout.....mist for 5 days then seal.
enjoy your floor.
NC
Thanks for your info. I have concert slab so will I still be able to tile over?
ccmorga
Yes, you can. The concrete won't "give" like a wood subfloor. That is why durock is recommended on the latter. If you have a lot of "give" the tile may break over time.
You're friendly folks at Lowe's or Home Depot can give tips/instructions on how to tile and what to use.
Here's one tip: instead of just starting to randomly lay the tile, consider the doorways into the room, and line the tile up so it will be centered through the major doorways.
Good Luck!
Going over vinyl is sufficient as long as it is sanded and the vinyl is glued or nailed down well.
The main thing is as I said before....to use a good quality thinset.
I've been doing tile work for 13 years.......never had a problem or a call back during that time.
NC
goneriding,
I imagine your advice is sincere. However, I take any advice from a professional with a grain of salt. Professionals by the very definition of the word are trying to make money. I found it very enlightening to read that after a hurricane in Florida, it was found that the houses built by students at a community college withstood the storm much better than those built by professionals! The reason the student's houses withstood the storm better was because they did things by the book and did not try to cut corners by using less nails, framing, or connectors. There is nothing wrong with going over vinyl. Some professionals won't do this simply because it is not the "normal" way they do it and thus would require more thought, labor, or both.
Heaven forbid you do work like a PROFESSIONAL
This is what gives rehabbers a bad name.
If you want a tile job that will last 50-100 years (and it can), going over vinyl is not the way to get it. If you want it to last just long enough to sell the house, then whatever, you don't care about the right way to do it anyway.
goneriding,
I'm sorry if I offended you. However, I would like to hear from someone who has put down tile over vinyl many years ago and seen the long term results. True, there is some slight give to vinyl, but it's not much. Unless you are going over a slab you are going to have some give, and houses settle and shift under the best of circumstances. That's why they add acrylic to grout. As far as the word "professional" goes, in reality it means nothing besides telling you the person does it for a living. It tells you nothing about quality. I would agree that it generally looks better, or else the person would not be in business for long. However, I would have much preferred living in one of the houses that withstood Andrew, than owning one of the piles of debris that was built by a professional contractor. Now I'm not saying that all or most professionals do poor work, although the Andrew study certainly was pointing in that direction. I'm simply pointing out that it is a combination of individual skills, experience and character that make for good work.
Advice that one should read the opinions of others in any given field seems good advice to me. Methods and techniques change all the time. It's good to hear others' opinions.
Also, I wouldn't confuse subcontractors who build tract homes with any notion of professionalism. Your observations are accurate there. The "builder's" of these homes want low-cost subs moving fast emphasizing production over qualtiy.
This is not your typical general contractor. Don't confuse the two. That's a whole other line of business.
Good People,
Laying tile over vinyl is fine. Problems that creep up with tile are often due to improper water / thinset mixture, improper amount of thinset on the substrate / tile, temperature...ie. laying tile in the winter in a new home where the temperature is not controlled, not taping joints when using substrates that require such.........I can go on and on why tile fails........laying it over a vinyl floor that is glued and nailed down is not one of them.
I have seen people put tile over OSB (which I do not recommend because of woods natural ability to move and breath), I seen them put it over concrete slabs (which I do not recommend because concrete often cracks and same will often be where your grout lines are) I seen it put over other substrates without checking to see what sort of deflection the existing floor currently has.......I can go on and on.
Anyone that thinks that a floor has to have zero deflection to put tile down know nothing about laying tile.
Houses will breath and move to a certain point.......that's just basic building 101.
I am amazed that many people think that putting an additional layer of a substrate will make the floor stronger without considering what is carrying the substrate.
It comes down to the fact that the substrate should be in fairly good condition and the subfloor should not be overloaded. If those conditions are met then you are in good shape.
There are various methods and materials one can use to complete a project. Most people are comfortable with what they have seen work in the past....which is fine....others are willing to try alternative methods which, when using common sense, often have proven to be better then what has gone before.
Tile contractors are no different then any other contractor when it comes to the methods they imploy in which to complete a project.
If a person wants to rip up the vinyl flooring, along with the luan that is under it....then feel free to waste your time.
If you want to add additional weight to the floor system then check the joist size, spacing and span to ensure you are not adding any more deflection then that which is acceptable for tile.
Im curious.....of those that say not to lay tile over vinyl............1)how many actually lay tile for a living........2)how many have actually laid it over any substrate other then durrock or hardiboard......3)how many have laid it over vinyl and it failed?
I would be real interested in nbr 3........I would wager that any failure if at all was not because the vinyl but due to some other principle that was not met.
Regards....
NC
In my experience with vinyl over concrete you take the vinyl up. Using a razor scraper (4" width)...zip..zip...it's gone. Concrete makes a real nice substrate for tile.
My true trade was plumbing. I served a three year toil and boil while going to highschool My dear grandfather did not like the look on my face said I was beginning to act and talk like all the neighbors. This was Beverly HIlls Calif in the 30's. So he apprenticed me to a plumber and I learned the trade. Missed a lot of surfing and some great parties but in good times and bad times I could always make a living. When I resigned from the Air Force and became a civilian I bought houses, moved in and started fixing them up. I cannot think of any crime in the construction business that I did not commit.
As to the present instance. I bought this dummy little house in West Hollywood and moved in and started to work. Usualy the first attack was in the bathroom. So I washed the nice Vinyl laid out my tile, did not snap a line, did not line on the door openings. I just started laying tile. The worst job you have ever seen. You could see the waves across the floor. I sold the house at a profit and moved on. I was doing about six a year and holding down a day job in a mortgage co.
One night I came home to my latest project and there was an older Italian gentlemen waiting to talk to me. He yelled and screamed and called me every name in the book. English, Latin,Armaic and Italian. Seems he had bought that first little house and he desired my imediate death. Seems he was raised setting tile in Italy and after he stopped spitting all over me. I agreed to come and look at the job and make an adjustment. That is if I desired to continue living. So I went back looked at the job, counted the pop ups, the cracks along the grout line etc. etc. This is California and most of the early houses way back in the 20's were built by Gypsis late at night and how shall I put it, they move.
Long and short for the next week I spent every night working on pulling up the tile and making proper corrections to the sub flooring and thin set etc. etc. etc. The old man never bent over. He had a little stick and he would tap me and instruct.
I took it. I wanted to learn, besides I did not yet have enough money to hire a real tile setter.
The surface must be solid, it must be cured it must be sanded out so that the tile will bite. You must know what you are doing and most important it is an art.
At the end the floor was perfect. I had sore hands my back hurt and my knees oh my god I thought I was in a Seminary praying every day. I still have my notes on what that mean old man taught me. I have utilized his knowledge many many times instructing others who worked in my prior crews. Everynow and then someone would come along from nowhere and have the golden hands.
I hope my suffering is helpful. Lucius
Hmmm, well *I* have not personally committed the sin of laying tile directly over vinyl, BUT I've seen the results. One good example - my friend's (ex)husband laid tile directly over a vinyl floor in their kitchen. Within a year not only the grout but the tile was full of cracks, they literally shoveled that tile out of there in pieces.
In my experience, it only takes doing something wrong ONE time to realize it's no shortcut, and it's easier to just do it right the first time.
No, I'm not a pro but I am a perfectionist. I've fully tiled (walls and floors) six bathrooms, I've laid stone tiles, I've done countertops. I like to think each tile job I do is a little better than the one before it, and (as with any construction job) the prep is everything.
Thanks y'all for all the good info. Today I tried again to scrape off the two layers of vinyl after an hour I did'nt get very www.far.I pick the small bathroom and said to myself if this is to mush trouble then I will tile over the rest. On the way home I stopped at a rental store and found out then have a machine that scrapes the vinyl off the sub floor, so for 48.00 $ a day I am going to try it next week. I well let you know how it works out.
ccmorgan
The answer to all this is simple:
Tile over vinyl only after - installing a cement board type substrate over the vinyl, attaching the cement board to the flooring under the vinyl with screws.
Can you attach cement board over this vinyl floor with screws? - No you can't because you have a cement slab under it.
Therefore you can't tile over it without removing the vinyl first.
Some things to know -
1) Removing vinyl over a cement slab is relatively easy to do. They make a razor sharp scraper on a stick for this. Find it and you will find your vinyl gone very quickly.
2) A cement slab with no cracks is just about the most perfect surface you can have to put tile over.
It all comes down to what you are trying to accomplish. I can paint over rotten wood siding without scraping out the rotten wood, filling and sanding the void. The results will be looking pretty good for about a week, but after that...
Its the same with this project. You could just tile right over the vinyl, but with time...
It depends on what you want to accomplish, do you want to long term solution or do you just want to pass on the problem to somebody else?
Lufos,
Great story. Shows it pays to do it right the first time. I'm guessing Hollywood was a small town then and they could find you!