Unpermitted Bedroom Addition
Seeing that we probably have rehabbers who may have to deal with this situation from time to time, I hope someone can give some guidance.
I am meeting with a homeowner tomorrow that has already revealed that the home was a 2br when they bought it 4 1/2 yrs. ago and they have since added a 3rd bedroom. They, of course, say that this addition was built to code but it was not permitted. Provided that this is a worthwhile deal after meeting with them, could someone experienced with this problem offer some guidance as to what is entailed in correcting this situation. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Dave
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Generally the old adage "the more you stir the soup the more it stinks" is followed. They may have done it to code, but the city won't care. They may go as far as asking it to be torn down or the sheetrock pulled to expose framing and electrical etc.
If it is in a garage or house who would care anyway?
I would first look at how it looks to you? IF it looks good and is functional why do you care? you didn't put it there. I woudl much rather have a 3/2 where one bathroom wasn't permitted than a 3/1 when it comes to selling a home.
Many owner finished basements were done outside of the permit process as well.
Now of course each area has its own things that cause buyers not to buy etc. and talking to a local investor might be a good idea.
Why are you concerned?
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Thanks Stockpro. I agree with your reasoning. Are there any Ca investors out there that can help? Thank you, in advance.
Dave
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." (Thomas A. Edison)[ Edited by dealfinder on Date 06/07/2004 ]
See what the options are for getting it accepted.
If the city wants it ripped down then let the city tell the present owner. That way you get a better deal.
As you know there is a permit issue be prepared to disclose it when you sell or get it sorted before you sell.
If you advertise and list as a 2/1 then you are fine but the price will reflect this issue (guessing 1 bathroom).
John
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I gotta disagree with stockpro on this one. Or at least put in a serious caveat. A room addition built without a permit does not have a statute of limitations. Twenty years (or twenty minutes) from now if the city happens to notice they can order it demolished. Now thats not likely unless the addition cannot be brought up to code. I.e. its built too close to a lot line or something.
I have a friend who is being given a hard time about a porch enclosure which was done in 1978. The city claims that this enclosure changes the exit configuration of the master bedroom and wants a new door installed in the bedroom. Probably not a big deal unless for example:
You bought a 3 bedroom house and the resulting code violation means you have to knock one bedroom down and sell a 2 bedroom house.
You sell a 3 bedroom house and the city picks up on the addition and comes back on that owner and they, in turn, come back on you.
The code changes between now and the time this is noticed. Since there is no permit the building has to conform to the code at the time the permit is pulled-- which may or may not be possible.
I'd be reluctant to let sleeping dogs lay on this one-- or I'd take a pass.
t all depends on how uptight your loval building officials, ehich varies city to city.
If it'a good enought deal, they you should be fine. Are you prepared to disclose this fact when you go to sell?
CKing,
That is why I said "IF it is inside the house or garage i.e within the existing perimeters of the house. I have worked on tons of these without problems, the problems usually come into play when there is an "addition" that changes the "footprint" of the house.
I would not "tell the city about it" as a previous poster mentioned, that would be a bad move and would you like it done to you? I would refuse to sell to someone that tried something like that with me. I might ask in "general" terms about what might be done, I might even show a foto that didn't include a street address etc. and ask for their best opinion. My company has done work in Portland, Boise, and Salt Lake and the "footprint" rule is the one most inspectors seem to go by. They aren't looking at how some homeowner did their basement or turned an attached garage into an additional bedroom.
WHile there may or may not be a statute of limitations. most records don't go back that far, I have had a real hard time getting records from 10 years ago in different jurisdictions.
Good Luck!
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Thanks to everyone for the help so far.
The situation is that the present owners were at least honest enough to admit what they did on this addition up front. They have only owned this home for 4yrs and 10 mos which means the addition was fairly recent in the sceme of things.
My intention is to do some minor repairs (paint, carpet) and either retail it or do a lease option. My question would be how to effectively handle this situation with the homeowner. The numbers seem to be descent enough to make this deal attractive. Never having this issue on any other deals I just do not want a nightmare. There is approximately a $25,000.00 profit in this deal at retail (not including the unpermiited bedroom). What are your thoughts?
Dave
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My experience with permits seems to be as long as no one like a neighbor complains and it is not an eye sore nothing ever happens.
Dealfinder, you lucky doggie,
Ramona, one of my favorite places. A little strange on their regulations but oh god I love that place. Go North on Hwy 78 about two miles out of town. Alongside the Highway is a little creek that turns into a small river in the winter. My dream is to come down there and build a really wonderful cheap house.
What you do is use the occasion to bargain the price down. Frown a lot, shake your head, look up to the heavens when they mention price. Buy the place and if you like just forget the unpermitted addition.
Of course as all things must, if at some future time you decide to go legit. Do an As Built Plan. Then go in on small correction, like plumbing into copper or bolts on the foundation which California style someone forgot way back in Reagen's time.
Nine times out of ten your inspector will write an acceptance.
I must come down and visit the berries that grow on my old 40 acres. Watch with great care. Soon they will allow the one acre Rancheros and those 10 to 40 acre parcels are going to be worth big bucks.
Great restaurant for breakfast on the main drag.
I envy you your area. Los Angeles, where I reside, loaded with pot holes and pot heads. Of the two I prefer the heads.
Lucius 8-) 8-)
This isn't a situation where there are 50 ways to go about it. There is one simple and right way to take care of this situation.
Have the homeowner get the addition to pass inspection now. They will have to pay a fine, usually for a home owner it is the price of the permit that they never got. Have the homeowner call the building dept and schedule the inspection, have them explain to the building dept that they did the work without permitting and would like to get into compliance.
This eliminates any potential time bombs for you and any sleeping dogs that you are scared to wake.
The building dept will inspect, fine and rectify with the homeowner. Once this is done, then you can buy the house with no worries.
This is a simple process and it is done every day. The chances of them making the homeowner tear it down are about as likely as you winning Powerball tonight. It doesn't happen. If they did make them tear it down, it would be because the construction was so grossly out of code, totally unsafe and unrepairable that you would never want to be buying this place in the first place from them, which is probably not the case. The worst that will happen is they might make them open up some drywall, but most likely the homeowner is going to get the place rubber stamped, and once that is on record as a closed permit with the county you are protected.
In regard to why he should be concerned is that whomever ends up with this place may some day do work by permit, there are good chances depending on how well or poorly or whatever this addition was done that it could effect the next homeowner when the inspectors come out to inspect the new work that has been properly permitted.
I once looked at an investment house where the previous homeowner had put on an addition. It was a ranch and he added onto the entire back of the house, the roof was simply reroofed connecting the new roof to the existing roof. The pitch was almost flat for about 10 feet where they were joined and it was shingled with asphalt shingles. No code inspector in the world would walk by that roof and not redflag the place while he was there for your regurally permited work.
This same homeowner had moved the electrical service into the interior of the house when he put on the addition, it was actually in the middle of a doorway frame! You could see the exposed wires running under the door of the panel instead of into the panel. The next person who applies for an electrical permit to do work on the house in the future is going to be faced with those code violations and have to spend the money to fix them before they will even be able to do the work they want to do.
This is why you should just have the homeowner get the house into compliance, if there is a problem, let them foot the bill instead of you down the road.
Once again, thanks to all of you for the good advice. I will definately take rehabinator's advice and have the homeowner schedule the inspection and get it corrected now.
BTW, he took an existing enclosed rear patio and converted it into a bedroom. The job looks like it was done right so we will probably have minimal problems with the inspector.
Lufos, thanks for your comments on Ramona. We enjoy living here. If your ever coming down and you PM me, we could possible have breakfast on the main drag and talk over REI.
Once again, thanks for all the help.
Dave
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One other thing to consider is that if any work was done with out a permit and you have a catostrophic loss (like a fire or flood) and make a claim to insurance-they will not pay. I had a client that bought a house that showed up as one with an unfinished basement but it had been finished with out a permit. Luckily, the building department did not require the walls to be torn out. We had to change some circuit breakers, fix some plumbing and make wider egress windows. The only way the new homeowners found out that there had been no permit pulled was because Colorado Springs had major flooding in 1999 and the basement flooded. The went to file insurance claim and the insurance would not pay because it was not permitted. The old owner was in Las Vegas and the burden fell on the new owner to bring to code and get certificate of occupancy.
Just something to consider!!
alsobe aware is CA about the disclosure laws when you go to sell the place.
You said he was nice enought to tell you about, he had to or risk severe liability.
He could give you discount and have you take it as-is. That way he's off the hook and you have (potentially) more profit.