LEAD PAINT ON WINDOW TRIM
I am in the process of buying a SF house for a rental. It has the old wood windows that are painted, and the paint is chipping, so I think it is probably lead paint. Other than sanding the stuff off the window and trim, I would like to use paint stripper. What paint stripper do you use to get the old paint off ? Will any stripper do, or is there a favorite among the rehabbers ? I intend to stain the windows once the old paint is removed. All comment welcome. Greg <IMG SRC="images/forum/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif"> [ Edited by glhi123 on Date 02/03/2004 ]
If this is a rental.....then why do you not just put latex over the existing paint.....other than the fact you want stained wood?
Should would be a lot cheaper......
Is this like a million dollar vacation home that you are going to rent out?
If not, the last thing I would do is spend all the money and the HUGE amount of time you are going to have to invest in order to return the wood work to prepainted condition. I mean you are talking, hours and hours and hours on just one window.
Not even to mention the lead paint issues you are going to open, talk about a can of worms the size of Texas.
If it was me I would purchase the proper lead based corrective paint and paint over that wood work and never look back.
I actually had a someone who works with the state on lead safety issues come out and look at one of my properties. I wanted to get a good idea of what is considered reasonable when trying to protect tenants from lead exposure. Basically, you just need to take care of the obvious. Scrape off loose paint and then repaint. Lead based paint was mainly used on window trim like you mention,both interior and exterior, and on all surfaces on the exterior. Rarely were interior walls have paint on them that contained lead. Many people are concerned with about lawsuits, but at least in my state, the lawsuits go nowhere. Since there are millions of homes with lead based paint in them, and virtually every legislator was raised in a house with lead paint, you shouldn't worry as long as you keep you properties in reasonable condition.
thank you to everyone who posted replies to my post. Here in wisconsin the city is extremely sensitive to lead issues. I think someone actually proposed that all rental property owners would have to have their properties tested by the state to determine if the house contained lead. I don't believe the legislation went through. I am all for getting it out of my rentals, and of course as required by law have the prospective tenants sign the paperwork acknowleging that I haven't tested, but there could be lead in the building, and hand out the required pamphlet. The chips of paint in the sash of the window is my main concern as the window is opened and closed...chips will form and could be chomped on by a toddler.
removing all of it would be ideal, but containing it is a alot less work, and accomplishes the goal. G
If I was a betting man, I'd bet that every house built prior to 1978 would test positive for lead based paint.
My suggestion to you would be to read up on the recommended remediation methodologies for lead based paint. Power sanding which would release air borne particles of lead based paint is not an accepted technique. Chips of lead based paint which fall to the ground (legally) have to be treated as toxic substances.
If you are intent on getting rid of the paint,
then try Peel Away. You should be able to find it a local hardware store or Sherwin Williams paint store.....
NC
thanks for the name of the paint stripper...g
I'm concerned that you mentioned sanding the windows. This would create lead dust that is breathable...far worse than any chip. Further, the dust will settle on all the flat surfaces and in carpets for later ingestion by unsuspecting victims. I think there is far too much risk here. Paint it over or replace the windows. Stripping would likely work nice but that is a very long and messy effort. I'd sooner replace the windows.
Here is a quick story on the subject....
I know of one landlord who purchased an older home that naturally had some lead paint. The paint was confinded to the trim around the windows and doors. He was not comfortable with that and replaced all the offending woodwork. 4+ years later, the tenents were a single mother and child around 6 years old. The child was doing poorly in school and was having disciplinary problems with the teachers. Of course this could be the case with any average 6 year old but the mother claimed these were symptoms of lead poisoning. The state came in and tested the house for lead. They found it in the carpet from 4 years earlier. He lost big on this investment. Since then, the first thing this investor does is to replace EVERY carpet in the house with hardwood or sheet flooring.
If you want to stip to make the window look better then I would go to walmart and get a can of "dad's easy stripper" it is fairly inexpensive and works well.
If this is going to take forever then retrofit a window into the hole and re-trim if your handy. You can do this in about an hour per window. and about $100 per window (materials)for average sized windows.
[addsig]
When I get a little classic house, like a wanna be Victorian or a for real McKinley stinker. I usualy take the windows out and use a remover heavily applied with the window sitting on a table support. We do this in the now vacant garage and we put down the usual paint covers and the area of treatment is isolated. I train a few of my people to do this slowly and carefully down to the wood. No heavy sanding, I like wood and it likes me and I do not abraze any more then necessary.
When we finish and reinstall with the new cords and other goodies they are truly expressive of the overall design and the new owners freak out over the good workmanship and care. We never carpet, I know it is suposed to prevent knee burns but really there has to be other ways to entertain. I refinish and repair hardwood floors and f they are not there I install some of the new edgemounted wood flooring and in some instances I have used 4 by 8 ply shop finished one side, and really do a stain and finish. Very eclectic. I show the house with perhaps a Charles Ames chair and ottoman, a Knoll table surrounded by tulip chairs. I edge the price up thru the ceiling. After all we are dealing in an old long gone (thank god) style of Architecture.
My point? Ah yes it pays off if you are selling. If you are high renting to those who aspire or want to retire, like in old town in Pasadena, or FooFoo land in West Hollywood, it is good business. I also use a gas light on the porch and brass kickplates on the doors and window flower boxes and bright strange colors on the doors. I adjust to the neighborhood. But in oldy houses it really pays to keep the wood woody. As to lead paint you watch your work areas and you train your help not to eat it, chew it or recommend such practices to others.
Cheers LUcius da house lover.
My post said "OTHER THAN SANDING"..
I do not want to sand the lead paint off. I am aware of the lead dust. I was leaning towards stripping it off and repainting. I am even considering just discarding the old windows and installing window replacements. The house was built in 1900 and is a war zone so I don't want to spend too much money replacing like 14 windows to have them shot out next month. G
If you really must use one of those nasty strippers, be sure that methylene chloride is the active ingredient. Don't waste your time with anything else, especially those worthless citrus-type designs. Z
In my experience, Peel-Away is the best to use for lead removal. Get a recommendation from your local S-W store as to which one to use. I have actually used it on BIG (10,000sqft +) lead removal projects in the past and the residue was considered non-hazardous (It least as far as the Lead was concerned). Methylene Chloride works well, but is EXTERMELY toxic (far worse then the lead). Not for use by do-it-your-selfers.
Lufos has the right idea on logistics!
Cheers
Marty
thanks for all the info on products and methods. Once I use that stripping chemical..and remove the paint .do I have to wash the wood with anything...to prep it for paint or just let it dry ...well ventilated. G
Once it's stripped, you'll need to wash it with either water or mineral spirits, depending on what stripper you've used. Make your repairs, if needed, and try to finish it with a sandpaper grit of about 150, but not rougher (lower numerically is rougher). If you use anything much finer (higher numerically), it'll take a long time, but the results will be the same. As some of the others have mentioned, nobody likes to sand anything or do extra work, but if your expecting a really nice finish, a little more prep work might be required besides just wiping off the old gook. If you are going to stain, try to avaid yellow sandpaper that rubs yellow into the wood. Wood is not my specialty, but I do a lot of custom painting for the auto shows. PM me if you need any more specifics. Z
As much as I love wood windows,I hate lead paint issues. I usually resolve the paint issue by replacing the windows with aluminum or vinyl. I also replace the wood trim which test positive for lead paint.
If it is a house you are going to buy and sell, dont worry about stripping. Just primer and paint!
If it is a rental, have your painters prep it really good and use a good paint like
Dunn Edwards.
Jeff Adam
[addsig]
Have your tenants sign a lead disclosure statement. CA has a good pamplet you should check out.
With any stripper, or any other knid of prep agent, you have to follow the manufacturers guidlines. Truth is, the prep work is THE most important part of a good paint job, no matter what you're painting. If the surface is not clean and dry, the best paint in the world isn't going to adhere.
Have Fun!
Marty
Number of post show how many investors are true Rehabbers much more often than S-2's or else. Basics are basic I guess but here are my 2 cents on the above subject:
It is obvious that you love your property but you never experienced what it takes to do what you just described you would love to do. If you have an older house 30+ year, I would never try to do that because it's the big job that will not yield the desired result. Once you start applying remover, you might end up with some wholes while on some spots you'll still have some pain. At that point it will not be possible to stop and if you try to repaint it, it will look strange comparing to the other trim.
NUSTY stuff that remover. Truly designed for smaller jobs or for some kind of masochist in hart. If you have to go to the wood, I recommend you blow torch carefully the old paint or you'll have a really permanently black stained wood that only the 2 coats of pain and 2 of primer will cover well. [ Edited by omega1 on Date 02/05/2004 ]
I had an old house and refinished the seventeen "12-pane" wood windows. I later found out how easy and inexpensive it is to install custom vinyl replacement windows. I could install a window in 1-2 hours. I will never strip windows again!
Len
Would have to agree with the replacement windows for re-habs. Most of the big chains can make just about any size and style of window very inexpensive. Really the only time that stripping the wood windows would pay is if it's a high-end or histroric home.
MArty
I concur. Z
maybe I will just replace the darn things with vinyl. I have seen them at the "depot" but have never put them in. We do have a local window manufacturer here in milwaukee, called Champion, so I will check them out. I really dread wasting my time when I could be out looking for more foreclosures, instead of on my hands and knees scraping a window ledge. thanks again for all the great ideas and replies. I truly do think this website is the best place on the net. best regards.
Greg
That's a good call!! You'll find that replacing them is easy once you do 1 or 2. Just make sure to measure them twice or thrice before you order, it's the sh**'s if they're 1/2 inch to big!
Later
Marty
I will measure one of the small windows first to try it, before I blow all my money. Champion will do the install for one price, and they come out to measure.
Do these windows have nailing tabs? how do you get it to stay in the window opening. Im not a carpenter...just more of a hack. I can get most things done ok in my own time...but I dont want to screw up the opening....its like 6 degrees here in milwaukee. So no open window is a good thing this time of year.
I will measure one of the small windows first to try it, before I blow all my money. Champion will do the install for one price, and they come out to measure.
Do these windows have nailing tabs? how do you get it to stay in the window opening. Im not a carpenter...just more of a hack. I can get most things done ok in my own time...but I dont want to screw up the opening....its like 6 degrees here in milwaukee. So no open window is a good thing this time of year.
I will measure one of the small windows first to try it, before I blow all my money. Champion will do the install for one price, and they come out to measure.
Do these windows have nailing tabs? how do you get it to stay in the window opening. Im not a carpenter...just more of a hack. I can get most things done ok in my own time...but I dont want to screw up the opening....its like 6 degrees here in milwaukee. So no open window is a good thing this time of year.
glhi123 - I am dying to know what the monthly rental payment is on this place. I am very curious why anyone would go to so much time and money unless this is a high end property?
What are the details?
This is not a high end property. Not even close. I just want to get rid of the lead around the windows, inside. I want to at least reduce some of the possiblities of lead poisioning in the SF home. I would like to know that I could also eliminate it. The best part of this website is the information available. I have not made a choice yet in regards to what I am going to do. Replacement windows would be expensive, but would also increase the value of the house. Because of weatherization standards in the state, you must have a storm window and screen window. I could just buy cheap storm/screen combos and screw them in place. They will eventually get broken and ripped and at $50 a pop, alot easier to replace. I am looking at all sides, and considering openly through a forum. This house is a foreclosure and I will probably spend 6 or 7k getting it livable and get a mortgage, as low as I can and not cash out. It's much easier to get out of in the long run if I have to...
I think it is admirable to want to do what you want, however, I really hope you research the dangers in trying to remove lead based paint. The EPA considers removal of lead based paint to be an environmental hazard and only to be undertaken by professionals. Sanding and any type of heating is considered foolish and very dangerous, as the dust and fumes are many times more dangerous. The only sanding they recommend is wet sanding. You are also advised to seal off the room with plastic and to throw away any clothes you use during the process. The EPA considers on average $10,000 as a budget for lead based paint abaitment. With the alternative of removal of the windows and door frames or encapsulation.
I hope you consult with some professionals besides this forum, this is really not something to be taken lightly.
Usually only windows made for new consturction have nailing tabs, they are installed before the siding goes on. Re-hab windows are made exactly to the window opening and slide in, screwed or nailed from inside the tracks, then trimmed out. The biggest problem i've had is making sure the window opening is square on older homes.
MArty
good point on the hazards and fumes. I am not even sure the windows have lead....but with the peeling I just figured it is. I dont want to test for it...just encapsulate it. New windows unless absolutely necessary are big $$ I will probably do what everybody else does and just paint over them. Somebody mentioned a particular product to paint over with, maybe I'm wrong. I will check it out. thanks again for everyone who posted. I don't want these houses to be the center of attention, just moneymakers. I house is just outside the warzone, so I don't want to spend my money foolishly and fix up a house to be really nice in a crappy neighborhood, I realize that this house is a "taxi-cab" to get me somewhere where I want to be financially. I just want it to be safe for the tenant, good plumbing, electrical, dry and safe, the things if not done correctly first off, can lead to lost profits down the road. Can't count on all fingers and toes the times I have relit old furnaces. Should have just replaced them the first time, instead of babying them to delay a purchase. Driving to the hood in the dark. Not pretty, not fun, but necessary. I am trying to move out of the warzones, but I realize that is where the money is, but allot more headaches too. duplex prices here in milwaukee, are going thru the roof as every new investor is jumping on the bandwagon. thanks again to all. G
extremely important that you contact the local governing body that regulates lead paint issues in the state - if there are any laws - if not, you should be aware of any upcomng legislation - not to be a kilroy or anything but lead paint poisoinng is a serious issue - it will inflict PERMANENT brain damage in a child - something I hope you would not want to ever see...........no matter how much the roi - at any rate - the ex and I had a lead paint removal/abaitment business in MA - MA laws were extremely strict and one had to be a licensed lead paint contractor to remove the affected areas - it becomes real intense - similar to asbestos removal - containment rooms, tyvec suits, respirators, lead paint inspectors, etc. IT IS THAT TOXIC - especially the dust from the window sashes that move up and down - that is what you do not see - babies/children do not normally chew on windowsills!!!!!!!!!! - my sugesstion to you would be - (whatever the laws are) to remove and dispose (properly) of all the windows and replace with new vinyl replacement windows - you are not only removing any risk of a lead paint hazzard/law suit - but also upgrading the building for tenants (heat/noise) and future sale - believe me..........if buildings in your state are common to be built prior to 1978 or whatever year they banned lead paint - this will becom a looming issue!!! - if there is some architecuturall significant molding or casings, you may want to see if you can find a place that will "re-finish" or architecturally strip old paint - that way the onus is NOT on you
any ? e-mail me back
GOOD LUCK!!!!!
vinyl replacement windows should run you about $125-150 unless they are HUGE windows - how much do you think you are going to pay to have somebody "abate" it? - if it is still allowed in your state??