Giving Lender A Fake HUD
Doing a Short Sell and the seller's lender wants a signed HUD. Am I breaking any laws by completeing the HUD on my own software and signing as the "closing agent". The seller and buyer will sign the HUD, but there will be no real "closing" as the seller is just signing over the deed.
Does it matter if the HUD actually reflects the transaction or is fabricated. I can not think of an example where it might be fabricated, but wondering if sending the seller's lender a HUD that has say a realtor fee paid, but there really was no realtor.
Anyway, what is the legal aspect of sending a HUD that has me as the closing agent or of sending a fake HUD.
Brenda
I'll defer to the lawyers for their opinions. However, the following is from a HUD-1 I pulled at random from my files:
"WARNING: It is a crime to knowingly make false statements to the United States on this or any similar form. Penalties upon conviction can include a fine and imprisonment. For details see Title 18: US Code Section 1001 and Section 1010."
if i was not sure i would ask "hud" then you will know for sure. they are helpful and very informative. kenmax
But the point is that I am not getting a loan, I am paying off a loan. I do not believe that HUD or the US Gov is involved in any way.
Brenda
I really don't think the lender expects you to give them a signed HUD before you get SS approval. This just doesn't make sense. Send them one that is unsigned showing their payoff and how the rest of the transaction will go and they will issue short sale approval based on terms that they feel are most important.
I am talking about the HUD you send with the certified funds.
Brenda
Brenda,
A few post ago you were looking for ways to make a house look bad when the appraiser showed up when doing a short sale.
Now you want to take a government form and provide fraudulent information are you learning this activity from a course writer or are you thinking that creative real estate investing is somehow mixed in with fraudulent activities?
When the Feds show up are you prepared to say "Oh I was only faking it." as your defense.
The main reason I am posting the way I am is to stop any new person from feeling that it is OK to do investing this way.
John $Cash$ Locke
This is a legal forum and I am asking a legal question. You do not know me nor my ethics. So asking a question on a forum now makes you guilty of a non-existent crime?
Brenda
OK, I am going to rant and then you can delete this post just like you always delete all other post that you do not want the other newbie investors to see. Because of course you are the nurturer and mother of all the newbie investors. God knows where this country would be if the darn politicians did not always make every decision with the children in mind. There isn't any room left in this country for adult conversion because of the little buggers.
You know, there is an entire forum dedicated at this site to Subject 2 investing. Subject 2 is probably just as illegal and immoral as the acitivity which I am trying to discuss among knowledgeable people (if there are any on this site at this hour) without having to have a dose of self righteous, holier than thou attitude.
Brenda
Brenda,
Yes, I do know you because you are the one asking about a giving a lender a fake govenment form.
Also there is a big difference I am a Moderator at TCI, so now that you have decided that you want to butt heads with me guess who is going to win.
I can tell by your attitude you think the rules are not made for you, so on this board it will be the proper way or the highway, you want to smart off again be my guest.
John $Cash$ Locke
OK, so I got a little hot under the colar. Sorry for my mouthing, or typing, off. I know that being a moderator on this site is a thankless job and requires a lot of time.
I am not saying that it is the right thing to do, but my definition of right may be very different from yours. Each person must find their own yardstick to measure themselves. I am very comfortable in my skin.
My question remains - is it illegal.
Brenda
Brenda,
I haven't done any short sales myself, but i intend to in the future, so I'm learning what I can before I dive in. That being said, It's my belief that the HUD1 is common for the lender to ask for when analyzing anything. It is the standard form that the industry uses to break down who gets what when all is said and done. The HUD1 form does need to accurately reflect the deal, or it is fraud. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't want it.
Let the deals that you conduct stand on their own merit. If you put yourself in a position that this kind of thing is necessary for it to make financial sense. You're not doing it right!
I'd encourage you to conduct yourself honestly and with integrity in this business, and in life. If you do, this whole string becomes pointless.
Invest well and profitably,
Jeff
Brenda:
My question remains - is it illegal.
Nancy:
WARNING: It is a crime to knowingly make false statements to the United States on this or any similar form. Penalties upon conviction can include a fine and imprisonment. For details see Title 18: US Code Section 1001 and Section 1010."
Brenda, call me thick, but I think the form stated what you needed to know before Nancy or anyone else even tried to help you.
I'm thinking if you have to ask about deals that are making you feel uncomfortable & gonna get your feathers so ruffled,then that right there ought to be a red flag for a start.
Should you wish to proceed after your Q was answered, go ahead, we'll see you when you get out.
I don't mean this as a personal attack, but really, everyone here who has answered you has done so FREE of charge when they could have been elsewhere helping others who need it also.
I don't see why you're feeling the urge to bite the hand that's feeding you.
webster says: fake- to make something seem real or genuine in order to fool or deceive, a person or thing that not really what it is supposed to be, not genuine or real, false or sham........not the way to deal with r/e. don't start doing it. it will come back to haunt. if you have to "fake" any part of a deal to legally close it is not a good deal and it is not legal. the consequences will bite you........ kenmax
Wow...we need to chill. I'm curious why you would want to send an unsigned HUD. My guess is that you are trying to close the deal yourself and you probably have a power of attorney to handle the seller's side of things. Rather than make things look suspicious with the John Doe POA, seller and John Doe, buyer, you want to know what else to do.
As far as I know it is illegal to fabricate a HUD. It seems to be fraud. Realtors around here will handle closings for 1%. I'm sure if they "accidently" get a check cut to them for 6-7% they would refund your money. I have a good relationship personally that I wouldn't have a problem in this department.
I like your thinking outside the box. I'm not sure if this is your answer to things but it doesn't hurt to think about strategies. I'm sure you can understand the moderator's position here.
A kind word of advise is that you may want to word your questions with a legal example of how things might play out so that no one can question you.
brenda.....no one here is trying to "belittle" you. this site offers some of the most valuable info that you can find anywhere......for free. i have any years of exper. in r/e but i come here because this group is so knowledgeable on r/e. and i learn every time. you have to earn there respect and trust............kenmax
I think what this is about is legality. 3/4th of this site is about how to hide and elude a creditor so that you dont trigger a DOS clause. Sub2 and trusts etc. So, I could see how even though those methods are legal they do portray a mood of sneakyness and paints a fuzzy picture of what is okay and what is not. So, give her a break.
Instead of making up documents that could get misunderstood, do everything under the umbrella of a PROPOSAL. That is a weasle word in its self!!
What ever happened to honesty is the best policy, it may seem old fashioned to some, but you will have nothing to be ashamed of. Nor will you be looking over your shoulder. Not to mention sleeping good at night.
John