Mold And Dead Birds
What would you do? I have a signed contract to purchase a home that is up for auction in a month. I had it inspected and the inspector said that out of all the houses he has inspected in his career this is by far the worst (I know they can get dramatic sometimes). The basement is finished, carpet... He found several decaying carcasses of birds {brought in by their cat] that have been there for a long period of time, cat feces everywhere, water seepage with a very high probability of mold and insect infestation. Because the cellar is a box, no ventilation at all he said the air quality is probably at a dangerous level and the state of the basement would most likely draw in rodents. For me the dead carcasses and feces are an easy fix. Clean them out and rip up all the carpet, then treat for the smell. I do not have experience with mold and my perception is that it is expensive to get rid of? He said the house shows signs of years of neglect (it is only 15 years old!) There are holes in the walls upstairs he says were caused by the cracked grout in the shower stall top floor that has been a problem for awhile. The water continually travels down the walls to the basement affecting everything in its path including the pieces of wall that were removed. Shrubs near the house are overgrown and the gutters are not displacing the water away from the house so each corner of the house shows water seepage. Any thoughts on the cost to deal with the mold if there is any? I only factored in $15-20k fix up. The inspector highly recommended I call the board of health based on the air quality of the basement and that there are young children living there. what should I do...run screaming or is this fixable for a reasonable cost. Heating system may need to be upgraded to. Thanks for all responses!! :-o
Each and every one of the things you just said are reasons to get the house even cheaper. Heck, they ought to pay YOU to get it off your hands. You've got good documentation for asking for a SUBSTANTIAL decrease in the price. If you can't get it, walk, that's my suggestion. If you can get the house cheaply enough, then you can afford to fix most anything. If not, it ain't a deal anyway!!
I was going to pay off the 7 months arrears, pay the principal balance and give the seller 10K, based on this and the cost to clean up the mess the numbers are not working, however I do not know how expensive it is to deal with mold. anyone? also...do you think the bank would allow me to do a short sale and still put some money in the sellers pocket? I have never done a short sale.
The bank will not allow the seller to receive any funds. However SSpro knows of a non profit corporation that you can make a tax deductible contribution to and include direction of who to help. They basically are a homeowner's assistance company.
I would definately short sale this one. It sounds like a whole lot of work and I would want to get it very cheap before I mess with it.
Also mold is not that hard to get rid of. You first need to fix the problem causing the mold and then you can get a machine that will shock it with ozone and cleans up the air.
GOOD LUCK
Thanks, do I need to hire someone liscenced to treat for mold? Would this be a contractor? Is it cheaper for me to try to do it on my own? sorry,,,just clueless...
As far as dealing with the problem, I know I need to trim back the bushes, run an extension off the gutters to get the water away from the house, run some dehumidifiers in the basement and try to get more ventilation in the basement somehow.
I looked into this and there is actually no licensing requirement for people who remediate mold. There may be in your juristiction but likely on the city or county level. My plan for a property I looked at was to hire an enviromental testing company to test the before and after mold spore counts and also during each test take a test outside so you can see the "norm". If I remember right the tests were like $75 each so it added up to be a little more than pocket change.
If there has ever been an insurance claim dealing with mold then you may want to take a different route. I've heard that it is nearly impossible to find insurance coverage for a property once their has been mold in the building. The only way for them to know is a claim.
It sounds as though the property you are looking at may be quite a repair. I'd have to look at it but I am thinking that with a little care you can take care of your mold problem.
I would recommend tearing out all sheetrock & carpet, clean like hell, and then run the ozone machine like crazy.
GOOD LUCK
If this is one of your very first rehabs I think you should pass, if you are pretty experienced at this, you should be licking your chops and be chuckling your best movie evil doer laugh, just thinking about how many other newbies are not going to have the balls to pay too much for this place. These are the types of rehabs that can but big bank in your pocket because only the truly experienced or the truly stupid would ever buy this place. You have to decide which one you are.
It doesn't sound to me like there is anything in this place that can't be overcome very cheaply if you know what to do, but if you don't know exactly what to do yourself, you are going to have to be paying retail dollars to have somebody do it for you, and they will be big retail dollars.
Okay, I lack the experience and am trying not to be stupid (I don't take offense at that I am trying to learn this business as best I can) but I look at this as a challenge and if I can figure out how to approach it I will come out on top. I also know that if I don't pursue this another rehabber will. I just have questions I need to have answered. One question is how do I get ventilation into the basement that is basically a box with a bulkhead door. I can run dehumidiers but what else would help...windows? what else could help ventilate? Thanks for all the responses so far!
OK, how much did you pay for this inspection and what are the inspectors credentials? Is he a member of the American Society of Home Inspectors? How many years has he been doing this? Bear in mind that if he came and found nothing, you would feel like it was a waste of money, so generally they are going to include everything they notice.
Did he actually say there was a high probability of mold? From my experience, if there's mold you will see it, unless the homeowner has done something to hide it, like new sheetrock....It doesn't sound like this house has any new sheetrock. To take care of the mold there are professional cleaning products that include an algicide/fungicide that should be used to clean all surfaces that cannot be removed. we hired a company to do a mold remediation here in new jersey and they stripped out all the sheetrock and wood flooring in the basement, then set up a hepa air filtration system, sprayed all surfaced with a paint-like product to kill all spores and prevent re-growth, then did the air filtration again. While all this was being done we could not run the heat system as it would blow any mold spores to the upper levels of the house. When they finished ($5000 later) we paid to have the ducts cleaned and treated. Unfortunately here in nj where we have more lawyers than needed, we have to be very careful when getting rid of mold, lest we be sued. FYI... our mold was caused by the bank who foreclosed turning off the utilities causing the sump pumps to not run, which allowed 3 feet or rain water to collect in the basement. That and the 3 layers of carpeting in there resulted in MOLD. Also fyi, not all mold is toxic. Staccybatrus is a black toxic mold, but not all black mold is staccybatrus. (Pronounced stack-ee-bah-trus)
Was there actually insect infestation and if so what kind? It sounds to me like this guy threw around a bunch of generalizations without actually proving anything. In my inspections, if there's mold, the inspector will point it out. If there are termites he will show me the trails, and point out the damaged wood. I would also be told in their opinion if the water seepage is a result of under-ground water seeping up from below (high water table) or just poor drainage from the gutters not being sound and or topography being bad. He suggested you complain about the air quality but you didn't say what's wrong with the air. Did he test for anything with the air?
Did he say the heater needs to be upgraded? There are calculations for how many heating btu's are needed for each square foot of living space and there are air flow guages that can be put on the vents to test output. Is this what he based that on? Is it undersized for the house or is it mal-functioning? Again, anytime my inspector identified a problem, he included the reason or suspected cause as well as possible solutions and costs if he might have information on that. I think if I were you I would be asking him questions. And just thinking out loud.... does he know the terms of your sale? Maybe he wants the deal. I think I would go back in with a good all-round contractor and get professional opinion on these issues along with his estimate.... if he thinks you might hire him to do the work, they'll probably do it cheaply or for nothing.
Good luck and please keep us posted!
bonnie in nj ... land of the lawyers....
Thanks for all the great info so far!! I dropped my offer $10k and I think it will be accepted. I have made a mental note NOT to hire this home inspection company again. There are some areas he did not inspect because he was overrun by the smell. I was not that overrun by it when I was in the basement and because of this I don't feel he gave me a complete report. He did find a lot of things that need to be addressed but left unanswered questions also. I have used another company in the past who unfortunately was booked up the week I needed the inspection...this is why I tried a new company. never again...
I am going to read up on mold so that I am prepared IF I come across it, he did not confirm it was there just thought there was a high probability. If it is not visibly noticeable then I will not bother with it. Any good cleaners recommened to clean off efforescence?
I'll keep you posted, thanks for all the responses!!
Hey Pushcart,
I think I might be able to help you out I am a Certified Mold Remediation Specialist. If you truly feel you have a mold problem you should hire an Industrial Hyginist in your area they will be able to put together a remediation protcol that you can follow. This will ensure that a proper clean-up has been completed, they will be able to direct you in tools and proper containment procedures to keep the mold from proliferating through out the structure. They will also be able to take care of pre and post abtement testing to make sure that the clean up is completed sucessfully. As for not all molds being toxic that is true, but all molds can be allergenic to the right people, and their are more toxic molds than just the stachy. If you need any help in diciding the right steps to take I would be more than happy to answer any more questions. Remember that if the size covered by visible mold is less than 10 square feet it does not take any training to clean up the mold. :-D
This sounds like a house I bought, also in MA....... but yours is in better shape.
Congrats on the price reduction. Here are my suggestions:
Re: Mold: There are several types. Others here are more knowledgable than myself. Thus, I'll let them cover the specifics.
1) Identify the moisture sources- all of them. (In our case, we found failing gutters, a leaking foundation, a roof leak, unvented soffits, bathroom tub water leak as well as improper or nonexistant bathroom, ovenhood and clothes dryer venting.)
2) After rectifying the sources, you might find (as we did) that all of the mold died within 10 days. It was than removed with a bleach solution.
3) Most of our mold was on or around windows. As a preventative measure, all window trim was painted w/latex paint. (Mold cannot grow on latex products. It can however grow on oil based products, including clear sealants.)
Re: Inspector validity/credability:
Their not perfect. Some are fabulous and some are beyond useless. Personally, I don't bother. If I have a concern, I bring in the contractor who is going to do the work. Instead of having the problem identified, you will learn the problem, the solution & the cost. For my clients, I reccomend both approaches. I suggest using the inspector as a "general practicioner" and bringing "specialists" in for substantial problems identified on an as-needed basis.
On the downside:
I agree w/you. Who cares what the cat dragged in? Just drag it back out. However, there are two concerns I would have;
1) Source of moisture in the basement. Could be easy and cheap- Could be complicated & expensive. Better venting does not answer the problem in whole. Infact, when the air is warm and capable of handling a very high volume of moisture, improved air flow can worsen your situation.
2) Bathroom leaks: Sounds like we're talking about an impressive volume of water working its' way through the walls. I would open those walls and check for dry rot.
Good Luck!
If this is your first rehab walk or find a partner/investor or contractor open to a split mold is not hard to get rid of,if there really is mold fresh air and stopping the water seepage is foremost!! there are testing companies but they are not cheap.
I am just finishing a house for two investors who have more money than experience,but they are paying me,and this house was a mess! Extensive mold damage bad roof dry rot overall neglect.
but the old saying still holds true if yo want an omlet ya gotta break some eggs.
Mike
Okay, I closed a little over a week ago. Immediatley cut down the overgrown shrubs and extended the gutters. Will start running a dehumidifier...hoping this will cure the "wet" basement. So far 13 dead birds and counting... The stench from the cat urine/feces is horrible! (sorry for being graphic). We are going to rip up all the carpet. Any suggestions for a quick way to remove the cat odor??
what did you pay for the house? keep us posted on the mold and the sale/rental when done. good luck...you'll be fine.
I would think that with the arrears that this property would be an ideal short sale candidate?
As to money for the owners, you can't show money from the sale to them but I would assume that whatever you do with your $$ is up to you. IF you put them in their next house and pay the rent for 6 months or pay them for moving their sorry stuff out of there that is up to you as long as it doesn't come out of the closing.
SSPRo would be able to further enlighten you on this.
I don know people tha pay $$ to the seller in the above mentioned manners.
[addsig]
Worse house he has ever seen? How many years has he been in the business. If more than two years - RUN RUN RUN. This house will keep you up at night and make you hate real estate. Can you afford to lose money on this house?
You are going to spend more than 15-20k for fix up. Posts detailed estimate of your "fixup".
Because your inspector said the M word (mold). You must forever disclose that to the next buyer. You need to do the clean up correctly, or you will sell the house, but be getting in the position of a possible lawsuit several months or years down the road.
Hi all,
I paid $192k, house appraised at $300k. i think I can sell it for around $300k or a little more based on the comps I ran.
It needs some serious cleaning which we have already started. I am trying to keep rehab cost to $20k...looking for low cost kitchen, bath and flooring options if anyone has suggestions other than Home Depot or Lowes which I have already priced out.
The inspector mentioned the wet basement is a perfect condition for mold to grow in but he did not see any mold so I do not have to disclose what "might" be there? We are ripping up carpet and replacing some drywall. I am not sure if there is mold but I do not want to test for it.
What is the best way to get rid of the cat odor?
Rent or buy an ozone machine and let it run at night when your not there. Frequentl this will kill the odors, mold, bacteria, and other living organizms. Good Luck!
[addsig]
Well the house is getting cleaner, huge improvement so far.
However, the bird problem continues. We originally thought the dead birds were the victims of the previous owners' cats. We found a live bird today. They appear to be coming in by the furnace area. How? Could they come down the chimney?
There also appears to be a nest behind the vent in the attic (which is inaccessible). Could they travel to the basement through the walls? They are small birds. Just trying to figure out how to stop them from coming in?? :-o
I just wanted to give you all an update and encourage some of you that may be intimidated by ugly houses that have problems. We just finished this home, fixed all the issues and placed it on the market. We put it on the market Saturday, 3 couples looked at it on Sunday and we got 2 offers above asking! I am extremely glad I didn't run from this one. After a tax hit I am going to net $70-80k.