Doing Deals
It would be useful to be able to look at what other members are looking for. So far as I can tell there is a mechanism to advertise when you have a property for sale. But there is no mechanism to advertise that you are looking for an investor to buy a property. I know that this is a touchy subject around here since there seems to be a bit of schizophrenia about whether its ok to do a deal through this board or not but it seems that some advertising section for deals, other than straight property sales might go a long way to dealing with this problem.
I frequently see posts that a member is looking for a mentor. Now it seems to me that this is advertising as much as if someone posts that they are a contractor looking for work. While I understand the desire to protect the newbies and the desire to keep spam and ads to a minimum it seems to me that networking is a legit function of such a system. Everybody here is trying to make a deal of some sort. (Buying buildings, Selling buildings, selling books, selling partnerships). To pretend that isn't happening just drives it underground, to be worked out in private messages.
For example, I might be looking for partners to develop properties in specific geographic areas. One legit way for me to attempt to find such a person would be to offer to mentor a newbie in those areas in which I have an interest. Currently there is no way for me to sort members geographically, or by their experience level or by their interests. So I cannot contact those people who might be appropriate. If I were to post a list of places I'm interested in that would be hustling.
Now before I get slammed that this board is about education not deals, go look at my posts for the last week or two. I dare say no-one who hasn't got a book for sale has posted more times or more educationally (and if you do have a book for sale with a link to the site then isn't every post a sort-of advertisement, an attempt to prove that you are expert enough that folks ought to buy your book?). But in the end this is a learn by doing business and if you preclude doing deals from the board you've drastically reduced its utility.
So here's my challenge, figure out a way to let the deal-makers out of the closet. Acknowledge that this is a legitimate function of what you do here and attempt to regulate it in a way that makes sense rather than pretend that these folks are all altruists helping others out of the goodness of their heart. I'm all in favor of altruism but sometimes the way I could help best is to take a promising person and do a deal with them not just talk them through another hypothetical.
Commercialking:
I couldn't agree with you more!!!!
Thank you very much for sharing. There has to be a way to protect newbie's from board hustlers yet still allow the rest of us to conduct legitimate business. I'm one who would love to find the solution----your post is a step in the right direction.
:-D
If a newbie wanted help, and if they see you or anyone else as the one to help them, yes they can PM you. This is not "driving it underground". Nothing in the rules says one cannot do this. Many people do it, it is fine.
Secondly, there is the groups tab. Join a group, get to know those people in that group, decide on a day and time to meet, meet, exchange phone numbers and email address, than do all the deals you want.
Why does it have to be, I WANT TO HELP PEOPLE DO DEALS AND TCI WON"T ALLOW ME TO HELP THEM?
I know there are a bunch of GREAT people out there that want to help everyone achieve their dreams, but all those people have the hardest time reaching the newbie and letting them know they are out there to help. You know what, some of those people put their knowledge in a book and decided to sell it. That's how they reach out.
Now now, I know what your going to say.....but hear me out. If your are such a great investor and want to really help the next investor for free, I mean from the bottom of your heart, develop a course, make it real good, and give it away.
If anyone PMed me, and they have, advertising wanting to help me get to that investing utopia, I automatically hit the delete button. Nothing personal against the person wanting to help, it's just that experience has shown, nothing in this world worth having is free....something has to be paid.
Please, this is not a TCI problem your having. TCI was created with the vision of the developer. He/They have rules and guidelines that they want others to abide by if they are going to participate. They have them for a reason..which are not to hold the PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP PEOPLE back.
And you are correct when you say,
"I frequently see posts that a member is looking for a mentor. Now it seems to me that this is advertising as much as if someone posts that they are a contractor looking for work."
If you see this, report it. TCI mods have debated this one and we agree, it is advertising and is not allowed.
"TCI was created with the vision of the developer. He/They have rules and guidelines that they want others to abide by if they are going to participate. They have them for a reason..which are not to hold the PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP PEOPLE back."
Actually this is a really intersting response and maybe you could answer a bunch of my questions and others if you gave us a clue about who the developer is/are. Clearly this site is private property of some sort and it would be interesting to find out who's property it is.
"I know there are a bunch of GREAT people out there that want to help everyone achieve their dreams, but all those people have the hardest time reaching the newbie and letting them know they are out there to help. You know what, some of those people put their knowledge in a book and decided to sell it. That's how they reach out. "
I guess I made a mistake in using newbies as an example, because there seems to be a great deal of interest in "protecting" newbies.
Lets say instead that I was looking for a seasoned developer of shoping centers in the Atlanta area to joint venture on a strip mall for a national tenant who is leasing from me in other cities. How do I find him on your site?
Protect the newbies, and sell them a book.
commercialking,
Your Feauture post along with the post "suppose I was looking for", is nothing but an advertisement to try to beat the system and hustle some new person in.
By golly, folks this site has been going on for two years, has become the number one web site of it's kind on the internet, without commercialking and his 110 posts, how did this happen?
You have not been here long enough to know what anyone does for the new person, I receive between 200-300 private messages evfery month from new people here and answer everyone of them, ask them if I ever tried to hustle them for anything.
I have people who PM me and tell me they have $1M-$2M cash, how should they invest, I always tell them not with me, I just do Subject To deals so I don't need this kind of money.
Learn by doing, OK here is my challenge, go out to the airport and rent a 747 for the day. Now do a takeoff and landing, forget renting it by the day you won't need it that long. Just as some new person trying to learn this business without proper instruction would not last long either.
nebulousd, has your number just as the other Moderators who have PM'd me about your posts and this post.
John $Cash$ Locke
commercialking,
If you're going to claim that you're a great source of information, you ought to make sure that the information you're posting is accurate.
So, for example, if you want to paint rosy pictures of the "vast set of circumstances where a quit claim is perfectly appropriate", you ought to get your facts straight or qualify your information to practices in a particular state:
http://www.thecreativeinvestor.com/modules.php?mop=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=25500&forum=18
Unlike JohnLocke, I have dozens of people, not 200-300, PM'ing me each month asking for advice on a range of subjects, from land to tax assessor URL's. I, too, have answered each PM to the best of my ability giving info people have asked me to give them, without sticking out my hand. When I teach classes (outside TCI), I rarely leave on time because invariably people come up with questions (during the breaks, before lunch, after lunch, at the end of the class). I answer their questions and that's on my own time.
You say you're "all in favor of altruism" but then state that the best way to help is to do a deal with some person. That deal would put money in your pocket, wouldn't it? Or were you going to hand over all of the profits from the deal to your "mentee"?
If you want to "come out of the closet", do as nebulousd suggested: join a group.
Joel Webb created the site.
Joel is his username.
Webbgroup Network Systems, L.L.C is his company.
Ask him why, why not, how, who, what, when, where, how much, for what, how to, where can, and all the other huh who ha's you want. I have nothing invested in this site. I just like it. It has helped me tremendously in my pursuit for knowledge in this "real estate" world. And no one volunteered to help me nor did they PM me offering to help.
And yes, I bought a book...a bunch of them.
You can do a search for people in a certain location with a certain occupation by clicking the Members link at the top of the page.
Here is some stuff worth reading of why we do the things we do.
http://www.thecreativeinvestor.com/Content26.html
i have been posting on this site for a few months. it is a "wealth of r/e info." i have been investing in r/e for 30 yrs. but learn something new on tci everyday. i have posted enough that newbies are e-me on methods and general questions. i answer them to best of my ability, i have even been offered money which i have turned down. reasons: time is money rehabbing has me engulfed; but the main reason is i feel that this site has helped me in so many ways that i feel obligated to return the favor. please don't change the "mission statement." kenmax
"Your Feauture post along with the post "suppose I was looking for", is nothing but an advertisement to try to beat the system and hustle some new person in."
Actually, John, no they are not. I am not, in fact looking for either of those things. They were attempted examples of only such things as one might, in my opinion legitimately, wish to find through such a site. All by way of questions about the policy. I specifically, in fact picked two examples that are not at all the kind of thing I am interested in because I did not want to be accused of advertising.
Your response, that I am trying to pull some kind of scam is, quite frankly, a little insulting. I made what I thought was a legitimate suggestion regarding an improvement to the site and I am being met with resistance, sarcasm and hostility.
I'm not quite sure I get the point of your 727 analogy. But allow me to say that no matter how much class time or how many manuals one reads one does not know how to take off and land a 727 until one has done it. Granted the class time and the manuals perform a valid function but what is your objection to also helping people actually do it..
"You have not been here long enough to know what anyone does for the new person
That is certainly true. I'm not even attempting to claim otherwise. I am not denying that this is an excellent site or that it is very helpful and well done. I mearly asked about what I percieved as a weakness, a possible area of improvement.
"nebulousd, has your number just as the other Moderators who have PM'd me about your posts and this post."
Again, I'm not sure about what "number" it is that I'm supposed to be pulling. I have attempted to be supportive of the mission here, to jump in whole hog and do my bit. Yes, I would also like to do some deals through this site, I don't think I've been particularly secretive about that. If that constitutes some kind of number I apologize.
Yeah commercialking, to me Nancy sound like an expert, I read her posts back into history section and to me is impresive to see that that women colected most of her posts in about a month plus. She is an expert ans so is John Locke so while you are a rookie you got to follow the script. Learn. Buy. Obay. At list this is how I see it.
I'm sorry Nancy, I'm not quite sure in what way the information relative to quit claim deads was inaccurate-- do they do this differently in Pensylvania? The quit claim dead is an English common law practice, therefore (with the possible exception of Louisiana) I am unaware of any state where it functions differently. The fact that a quit claim has its limits does not make it less useful where those limits are respected and understood. In my post on the subject I attempted to outline my understanding of the limits and the uses. If I was inaccurate or "rosy" I await correction.
As to the suggestion that I join a group, I do, in fact belong to several.
I also teach classes and stay after to answer questions.
I'm not quite sure how this is relevant to my suggestion, that there ought to be some method to network and possibly "do a deal" with greater transparency than is currently available on this site.
Quote:
On 2004-04-06 22:44, nebulousd wrote:
Joel Webb created the site.
Joel is his username.
Webbgroup Network Systems, L.L.C is his company.
Ask him why, why not, how, who, what, when, where, how much, for what, how to, where can, and all the other huh who ha's you want. I have nothing invested in this site. I just like it. It has helped me tremendously in my pursuit for knowledge in this "real estate" world. And no one volunteered to help me nor did they PM me offering to help.
And yes, I bought a book...a bunch of them.
thanks Nebulosd, yes I am finding this link very helpful and I very much wish to contribute to the site as well, again I apologize that my suggestion has been interpreted as a criticism of what is obviously a very fine site.
And yes, I have a library full of books as well.
Quote:
On 2004-04-06 22:56, joel wrote:
You can do a search for people in a certain location with a certain occupation by clicking the Members link at the top of the page.
Here is some stuff worth reading of why we do the things we do.
http://www.thecreativeinvestor.com/Content26.html
Thank you Joel, I was unaware of this function .I am, as Mr. Locke is fond of pointing out, something of a newbie here and am enjoying exploring your world. Congratualtions for such a fine site, I hope that you have not taken my suggestions here personally. Obviously you've invested a lot of time and effort in this and it is quite impressive. Please, allow me to assure you that I intended my suggestions only positively.
I agree with kenmax. I have been investing for 30 years, full time since 1988. I was lucky that a Mentor took me under his wing in my early days, not for $ compensation but for the satisfaction of teaching. He made me promise that when I became successful, I in-turn would pass on my knowledge.
Suprisingly, I get almost as much satisfaction in learning that someone I have helped has done their first of many successful deals, as I do my own. For me it is not money any more, it’s a game, can I do the deal.
I have been a Member for 4 days. The Bird Dog/Beginners Forum is the one I enjoy the most. Maybe I am to new, I realize that the Newbies will post their questions without reading what has been posted prior. If they had, their question would have been answered. Their enthusiasm to enter this business may be misdirected. I feel all we can do is try and get them on the right track. Unfortunately, if they die (do not pursue REI), that is not because we are not willing to help, but do to their lack of action.
Knowledge is always a requirement. Failing to use that knowledge is a waste!
[quote]
On 2004-04-06 21:12, NancyChadwick wrote:
commercialking,
If you're going to claim that you're a great source of information, you ought to make sure that the information you're posting is accurate.
Nancy, I apologize for my prior post in response to this post under this heading, I see you did, infact post your criticisms of my "quit claim" discussion in that heading as well, and I have responded there in detail.
commercialking,
I think when you read my reply to your reply on the quitclaim topic, you will understand why I was troubled. "Rosy" is not an adjective I would use in describing quitclaims and you yourself admit that taking a property with title defects is "not for the faint of heart."
Your feature post here said in part:
"Everybody here is trying to make a deal of some sort. (Buying buildings, Selling buildings, selling books, selling partnerships)."
....
"Now before I get slammed that this board is about education not deals, go look at my posts for the last week or two. I dare say no-one who hasn't got a book for sale has posted more times or more educationally (and if you do have a book for sale with a link to the site then isn't every post a sort-of advertisement, an attempt to prove that you are expert enough that folks ought to buy your book?)."
The message you seem to be sending in the above is two-fold:
1. People post in the Forums, not to try to help others, but just to sell products because their posts contain links to their products. The clear implication being that "hustling" is being done by those with products to sell, so why shouldn't everybody be allowed to do it. I disagree with and take exception to your basic premise. Furthermore, if you find any example of a Channel Partner (member with products for sale) hustling others through Forum posts or PM's or emails, I encourage you to report that to all of the Moderators.
2. You (who does not have a product to sell) have posted more (quantity) and better (quality) in the last 1-2 weeks than anybody who does have a product to sell.
I do not like the idea of a posting "scoreboard" because some people seem to be obsessed with keeping track of who the top posters are on a monthly basis and these people insist on posting snide comments about the number of posts made by others or their post ranks.
Accordingly, I have on more than one occasion asked that the "posting scoreboard" be done away with. I have said on more than one occasion, and say again, that I do not care who is posting how much over what period of time. Quantity does not = quality. The posting scoreboard still exists. People continue to post snide remarks.
As for the quality of your posts compared to those of other people, that is an entirely subjective opinion. You cannot isolate one post by one person on a topic and compare it with a different person's post on a different topic. To use a real estate analogy, you have to use "comparable sales". Otherwise, you're trying to compare apples with oranges.
I agree that one does learn by doing but I also believe that instruction and education are essential. It's a combination. It cannot be all one or all the other. As JohnLocke said, a person cannot pilot a plane (and live to tell the story) without instruction.
HEY ! I'M THE NEWBIE ! And I have to tell you, that I, as a newbie, partially agree with ALL of you.
Yes, I agree that for some, reading and posting and reading, are not enough. Some would love to have a mentor work with them through a deal, and GLADLY split any profits to be able to learn hands on.
Yes, I agree that this site is excellent and should be commended for its attempts at protecting us newbies. Yes we could very easily be prey for experts sporting their wares. Thank you for protecting us.
But again, I agree that commercialking (CK) is asking for a new and easier way to communicate with those that "of their own accord" would be interested in what he has to offer. Just a modification of the "join a group" response.
Here's MY newbie challenge to you all:
IF there were a way to satisfy CKs request, AND keep everyone happy and protect the board from spame and hustlers, HOW could it be done?
Come on, you guys are smart, you can figure it out. Maybe if you had this special forum/group/area, maybe those involved could post how it's going? OR Evaluate their experiences -- JUST LIKE SOME EVALUATE THE BOOKS ON THIS SITE-- and let people decide for themselves from there? This is, of course, just one off-handed suggestion. I'm sure with a little bit of dedicated effort and time, a reasonable medium could be reached.
There, I think that sounded pretty good for a newbie, dontcha think? (please dont blast me)
By the way, I've been reading this board for quite awhile and I did not know about the Members area that you can do a search on, My eyes were always carried to the Posting list below and never saw the search function.
MY QUESTION: Where's the SubjectTo category?? DARN. I'm guessing they'd be mixed with wholesalers, but it might be a nice addition??
Kathleen,
Glad to meet you.
I will give you a little history of what has happened and is happening on discussion boards so hopefully you will have a better understanding of why certain policies are in effect.
Since I am a long time poster here at TCI through time I have received many Private Messages from posters here.
"I was contacted by a poster here who offered to mentor me for $3,000. I sent my money and after about 2 weeks I have not had contact with this person. Can you help me?"
This is not an isolated case and I am sure that many out there are to embarrassed to respond on what happended to them.
Everyone should also be aware that many posters with 500 - 1000 posts have never done a deal, they spend time reading other posts and respond according to what they have read.
I have seen where new course writers were asking new persons questions a few months ago and now out with their new material on how to do creative real estate investing.
On another board they have a live chat room one of the regulars there who was touting mentoring and was apparently very successful at it through the replies by one of their mentees who was also in the chat room. Come to find out the mentor and the mentee where the same person, this was brought up by another chat room person and the mentor admitted they were the same person.
I am familiar with many of the posters and Moderators here at TCI and know the ones who are the real pro's in this business. I am also famliar with the ones who fell asleep watching a late night infomercial from a famous Guru and when they woke up they became one.
This is not the only board I post on and I will tell you this the real pro's know who the others are by the way they post. I also know many other course writers, Bill Bronchick, Joe Kaiser, Pete Youngs, Dwan and Sharon, Steve Cook, etc., these people have a verfiable track record with their students.
If you are looking to network then network with people in your area, you don't need someone with a deal in Florida and you live in Kansas.
So what I am saying how do you as a new person know how much a person know's, some of the board hustlers are very good at what they do. Some of these so called deal-makers can be heart-breakers in the end.
I am wrestling around with a contest idea called "Stump the REI Pro's" here at TCI, where there will be a panel of "real players" who answer the tough ones from the posters and if you stump the pro's then there will be a reward.
I am also looking forward to the TCI Convention where the posters here will have a chance to meet and talk with some of the true pro's in this business and personally meet face to face with my fellow community members.
John $Cash$ Locke
Adding to Locke's post above...
Recently someone posed the question "How much do you make". A user responded by saying "Last year was a bad year. I only made $3,000,000."
This was obviously an attempt to boost credibility. Turns out she's making her money by finding investors to throw money into hotels in very rural Utah and promising huge returns. I've spoken with her personally. She pays to advertise in my local RE group.
I'm not saying that it itsn't a legitimate business, or that you couldn't make money by investing with her. But rather that she was posting in that fashion to gain credibility and have people contact her.
Unmoderated forums go south VERY quickly. Forums are filled with swearing, name calling, spamming, advertising, etc. So much in fact that such forums are practically useless. It appears to me that you want the best of both worlds. You want thousands of people coming to this site to gain RE knowledge and you want free advertising for your cause.
I know that Joel is activly trying to deliver services via this website that best serve it's members. I know he want's it to be available to all and wants to keep member fees to a minimum, but does not want to make a charitable contribution to TCI to the tune of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. His goal of TCI is NOT that it makes him rich. I've spoken with him personally regarding the best ways to make TCI pay for itself and still attract lots of people. The channel partners help keep the cost of the site down.
I agree that there should be better ways for birddogs, realtors, and loan officers to meet investors, and vice verca, but for now it's not worth sacrificing the integrity of the forums for.
Actually I've found a section of the site which was apparently intended to perform the function I'm asking about here. Under Properties there is a pull down menu for categories which includes something like, Under contract, looking for investors. But none of those choices other than for sale and for rent seem to be active.
Is there some reason these other choices were never made active?
Is that terribly difficult to do?
Quote:
On 2004-04-12 16:10, commercialking wrote:
Actually I've found a section of the site which was apparently intended to perform the function I'm asking about here. Under Properties there is a pull down menu for categories which includes something like, Under contract, looking for investors. But none of those choices other than for sale and for rent seem to be active.
Is there some reason these other choices were never made active?
Is that terribly difficult to do?
commercialking,
I believe this is the way it works.
If you choose a state where someone has listed a type of property (eg single family) and is looking for a partner, then the dropdown menu will be active for "need a partner". On the other hand, if all the single family properties listed for that state are "for sale" only, then "need a partner" won't show up in the dropdown menu.
This is what I have surmised from playing around with it. I would, of course, defer to Joel.
commercialking;
i think the only flaw in your request was that you posted a topic (as if to treat it like a petition and gain group interest). you may have gotten better response if you'd PM'd it to a moderator or Joel personally.
John Locke:
of course with all due respect, you haven't replied to EVERY newbie pm, b/c i've pm'd you twice (one looking for help and one with a real sub-to question), to which i got zero cumulative responses. haha. i was pretty put off by the lack of acknowlegement but later realized that you're probably busy - as i tend to get at times - and overlooked it or just didn't feel like responding.
good to know that you're not who i was picturing you to be, in my mind. :-D
jackman,
If you would be kind enough to tell me when this happened it is very unlike me not to answer anyone's PM or E-Mail, it certainly was not intentional.
However, it is important to know when this happened, awhile back Joel had to delete some of my private messages because there where so many of them it was backing up the system on TCI somehow. This is not an excuse, but please let me know there were some private messages that dissapeared.
John $Cash$ Locke
Nancy,
I don't think so. When I try to list a property with the status Investor wanted, the only choice available is Property for sale. If you cannot list the property with anything else then clearly no-one later can choose anything else.
Mark
Quote:
On 2004-04-12 19:24, commercialking wrote:
Nancy,
I don't think so. When I try to list a property with the status Investor wanted, the only choice available is Property for sale. If you cannot list the property with anything else then clearly no-one later can choose anything else.
Mark
commercialking,
When you say "list", if you mean you want to add a property to the system, then Joel is the one to ask. It wasn't clear to me from your post that you wanted to add a property. I thought you wanted to search for property.
On the other hand, if by "list" you mean you want to search for that type of property in that state where the person is looking for a partner, that means there is no property of that type in the system in that state for which the person is seeking a partner.
sorry to post off-topic one more time.
mr. locke:
thanks for the reply. i'm sure it was an oversight or as you said, some of your stuff was deleted. it was no big deal. i can't remember when it was but it was probably back in my first few months on this site - august 03 thru about october 03.
have a good day all!
John,
I just wanted to say that I really liked your "Stump the TCI pros" idea. Have you given this any more thought?
Also... For what it's worth from a Newbie, I agree with Hibby (sp?) about the difficulty of walking the line. My only other experience with any sort of boards was on creditboards, and there are MANY MANY MANY more people online... to the point where I've gotten literally dozens of answers to a question in a single day. However, many of those opinions can be misleading.
One thing I can say for sure is that the information here is golden, and the old-timers are clearly knowledgeable. I just wish there were more members so it could move along faster... I've read every archived post in most of the sections already! Then again, if there were 20,000 qualified investors on here answering questions everyday, there would probably be no deals left for me to go and get, huh?
As for the hustling thing, it's definitely an issue. I know it was a big issue on creditboards as well.
thestudentisready,
There are two aspects I see with stump the pro's.
One would be ask the pro's if you can stump them then some type of prize would be given. I envision maybe four top pro's made up as a board to answer questions, run it on a certain night of the week during certain hours.
Just some ideas I have been thinking about.
Another one would be a pro would ask a learning question of the members, something that the pro has personally experienced. This would get the creative juices flowing from the members. Then the best answer or let's say correct answer would win the prize.
I did a pilot learning question on my site and it seemed to work rather well, as I could see the students coming up with some pretty good stuff. Then I gave the answer for all to see.
John $Cash$ Locke
Well, for whatever it's worth, I think it's a great idea. It might help to "break the tension" a bit too when the newbies see some of the pros participating.
I've seen a lot of posts here where newbies pretty much just get spanked for asking a question. I've got thick skin, but I can see where people might get intimidated right on out the door. I think your idea might help to bridge the gap as it encourages participation from both ends of the field.
I read this post and I wanted to make some comments on everyone's comments.
Now I do not claim to be an expert in all fields. But I am considered an expert in the Pgh, Pa area in a few fields. Primarily Financing and Retailing. I do not feel the need to write a book .
I receive about 15-30 PM's and about 30-40 e-mails a week from members and this site. I also receive about 10 phone calls a week.
I understand why it is necessary to monitor people from advertising. Most posts I read are very misleading in my opinion.
I believe that each area of the country is different.. There is no way I could give or would give people from Ca. advise on Real Estate. But financing is another area. I would be able to and I am qualified to give advise in that area.
Pa is a commonwealth and our laws protect the CONSUMER first. I read many posts of deals that could never legally take place in Pa. I usually never comment because I don't know if they are legal in that part of the country.
I personally would not like people contacting me about business ventures in Real Estate. I have people contact me about financing from all areas of the country and I have participated in obtaining financing for a few members. I think we are all allowed to advertise, we display our website information. I received calls from people who went to my website and got my number and called.
I think that Commercialking is a very informative member on this website. I usually agree with his posts. I think that if he is looking for partners he could put that in his profile. The people who want to contact him could go to his webpage and look at the information. This would keep the website out of it.
Lori
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