How to find a Good Attorney
One of the most persistent questions here on TCI is how to deal with the professionals, the attorney, the Real estate broker, the mortgage broker. “How much is too much to pay?” “Are Realtors the friend or the enemy?” “How can I find a mortgage broker who understands creative real estate?”
Answering the question, oddly enough, requires you to develop some understanding of how the Professional thinks, what his needs are, how his business runs. It’s just like negotiating with a seller. The real key to successful negotiation is not in knowing the difference between a lease option and a short sale contract. It’s being able to get the seller to tell you what he wants and what he needs in a way where you can understand and decide whether you can give it to him.
One of my many hobbies is gardening. I’m not necessarily very good at it but I enjoy getting my hands dirty and eating food that I grew myself in my city rooftop garden, overcoming obstacles like not having any actual ground to plant things in. One of the things I’ve learned in gardening is that each kind of plant has its own characteristics. Some like sun, some prefer shade. Some will climb up anything, others cannot be made to climb at all. The secret to getting the look you want is to find the plant that likes to do what you want done. You can, if you wish, attempt to grow a sun-lover in a shadowy corner. But if you do they won’t be happy about it. And in the long run neither will you because you’ll always be complaining that the plant doesn’t do what you want it to do.
Lawyers come in many types (like plants). The key to getting one who you will be happy with is to find the one that has the characteristics you want. The problem is that most lawyers don’t have a clue about what kind of person they are. So they don’t know when to say, “I’m sorry but I just am not very good at that. You want to go find somebody else.” So as the boss (remember “client” is just a power play, keeps you in your place. You write the checks, you call the shots) you need to know what you want and how to eliminate the people that don’t fit the bill.
So, herewith an opening discussion of some of the major types and how to get them to flourish:
The Litigator
At the top of the food chain is the Litigator. This is the guy you see in all the lawyer movies. He thinks of himself as a fighter, going to bat for his clients in court. Unfortunately if you’re not involved in a lawsuit already he’s pretty worthless. Without the adrenalin of a court case he’s bored. He needs to have enemies, know who the opponent is, understand victory. But it is the litigator who most people think of when they go out to hire an attorney: “I want a real bulldog”. “I need somebody who will be a real tough guy.”
This is why realtors, and some investors, think that attorneys are the enemy. They put a certain amount of work into negotiating a contract, getting it down in writing and all signed and sealed only to have lawyers tear it apart and, frequently kill the deal. The lawyer thinks he’s protecting his client, in his world view you are the enemy, the opponent to be mastered. Remember this when you get your own attorney. If what you want to do is close deals you don’t want a litigator negotiating your contracts for you.
The litigator spends a lot of time researching the law on each case he handles because each case is different, each has its own intricacies, its own possibilities. He’s really expensive, but a good one gives you personal attention. When you need to sue because your seller backed out of your option on a $1.5 million deal and you’re stuck with tens of thousands in sunk costs this is the guy you want.
The Sweatshop
But like all “top of the food chain” animals the litigator is a rare breed. Most attorneys are of different species. For example there is the factory worker. This guy is just trying to make a living. He figures the answer is in specialization and production. This is great if what you want is the same thing over and over again. For example: evictions. Evictions are all pretty much the same. There is a tenant who is a bad guy (says the landlord) either because he’s failed to pay the rent or because he’s obnoxious in some other way. There’s a landlord who’s just trying to cut his losses and get this deadbeat out as quickly and as cheaply as possible. There’s a state law that governs how the eviction can be done.
In every big city there are a couple of firms that just do evictions. A good eviction attorney can handle 50 cases in a morning. He spends next to no time in researching the law because he already has mastered the intricacies of his jurisdictions’ eviction law. His business is about “churn ‘em out, don’t worry about the details or the individuals”. He wins almost all his cases because he’s a professional at this and he’s up against a bunch of amateurs.
Other examples: the guy who processes tax lien foreclosures. It’s a crank ‘em out kind of process. Even many real estate attorneys whose practice is almost all closings and whose review of the contract is pretty perfunctory are sweatshop kind of guys.
If what you want done is this kind of thing then the sweatshop attorney is your guy. Quite frankly, it’s a much better use of my time to be out doing deals or sailing or almost anything than driving across town and sitting around some courtroom waiting for my case to be called so I can evict a tenant. The sweat shop guy is already there, he doesn’t charge you for transportation, he works piecework. In the end he’s really cheap when you think about it.
The Dealmaker
Here’s a guy who’s not sure if he’s an attorney or an investor. He makes his living making deals happen. Buying a big apartment complex and need a guy to write a syndication agreement and help raise the money among the Limited Partners? Find a deal maker. Buying an old factory to knock down, rezone, deal with the EPA on the environmental problems and build condos? He’s your guy. He understands the complexity of these deals and has the political and economic connections to help get it done. He’s probably part of a big firm so he can farm out the mundane details like actually writing the partnership agreement. He’s not cheap and he’s just as likely to have his own self interests and/or those of his contacts ahead of yours but in the right deal he’s invaluable. What you are paying for here is his rolodex, not his legal expertise.
The Specialist
Here there are a whole group of sub-species: the guy who just does IRS work. the patient lawyer, the retirement plan specialist, the zoning change person. The trick here is that outside their specialty they are almost useless but inside they are a big help. This is probably the person you want. Dealing with foreclosures? Find someone who specializes in this. Buying paper and collecting? There are specialists in such things. Need a zoning change? In every area there are one or two firms which do 80% of them, hire one of those guys.
At first blush the specialist looks expensive. He has a higher than average hourly rate. But keep him inside his specialty and he’s a bargain because he doesn’t charge you for research time.
The Jack of all Trades.
Just want a guy who can review your contracts, keep you out of hot water, break the occasional deal that goes south without a follow up suit that costs you thousands? This is the bulk of the lawyers out there. They do a little of everything. Some real estate closings, some wills and probate, the occasional traffic ticket and the small stakes trial. Like most generalists they’re not terribly good at any of it but they are better than nothing—most of the time. I used to love to go against these guys pro se because they assume that since you’re not a lawyer you must be an idiot. But the fact of the matter is that a smart person willing to put in the hours to read the law can stand his own in this bunch most of the time. Get them outside an area where they have had a case and they’re not much smarter than the general public.
Well it’s not a comprehensive list by any means and I’d love to have others help out with their own sub-species. Feel free to comment with your own tales of woe or success, maybe even a few lawyer jokes. What do you call 12 lawyers buried up to their chins in crap? . . . . . “Not enough crap.”
Good Article. In the begining it's easy to assume that "all lawyers are created equally". That any "real estate attorney" is as good as the next.
A similar article could be written about realtors, agents, strategic partners, and accountants.
Unless someone is on the verge of litigation, I wouldn't recommend using a litigator for real estate. I agree that a litigator shouldn't be negotiating RE contracts. One of my worst experiences came with a RE client of mine who used the same litigator for 3 RE deals. By the 4th deal, the client finally saw the light.
I do disagree somewhat with your take on dealmakers, specialists and jack of all trades. I worked with attorneys both prior to and concurrent with my real estate work. One can probably generalize about every profession and business. Every profession and business has people in it who should be doing something other than what they're doing. But attorneys don't have the lock on that market.
I've worked with "real" real estate attorneys in deals where I was representing one of the parties. (I define a real real estate attorney as one who only does real estate.) The clients were in excellent hands. The attorneys knew the applicable law as well as being "well connected." I wouldn't recommend a jack (or jill) of all trades. If you have a problem with your back, you go to an orthopedic specialist, not a general practitioner. Likewise with real estate legal counsel. You don't want to have to pick up the tab for educating the professional you hire. And picking up the tab can mean a whole lot more than just legal fees. It can mean dealing with the consequences (bad results, mistakes, liability) of someone working for you who is inexperienced or incompetent--attorney, RE agent, CPA, contractor, etc.
Useful. I've discovered that I need not have (and, for that matter, in my small town couldn't find) a lawyer who knows much about Sub2 or Short Sale deals, but it isn't hard to find one who knows about Purchase Agreements or Warranty Deeds. Most contracts are pretty standard, and we don't need to pay them to advise us on the details of our deals, only to sort out the paperwork correctly so we avoid costly legal mistakes.
Dear Loon,
What no members of the second oldest profession. A town without Lawyers. Please inform me where you are I am moving at once.
Here in California where we have that enlightened system of Escrow for settlement, we really have no need for an attorney until some large error has occured. We mostly regard them as "Deal Busters". They do well at that. I once admitted that I did have a JD degree and was informed that perhaps I did not know the true name of this degree. "Jerky Dummy.!" I assumed this was some form of put down directed at me personaly. I have now learned it is a common term in Real Estate Circles. I am much relieved I would not want my secret failings to get out.
I mean on TCI it is tough enough being a Real Estate Broker much less being tarr'd by the additional epitaph.
Cheers Lucius
Excellent article ! It is very insightful and intriguing about how many "different" kinds of attorneys there are
in real estate legal practice.
I am a new investor. I am looking for an acountant with vision who has a strong knowledge or backgound in real estate.
Does anyone have ideas about a good real estate accountant? Hmmm....
Thanks PERSEPHONE8
Great article. THE QUESTION is still, "How to find the kind of lawyer you need?" Not just how, but, 'What is the best way to find them?"
Word of mouth...This may be the answer, but from who's mouth do we solicit finding an experienced and specific-type of RE lawyer?
Who's a source that usually deals in real estate to give a recommendation, in say a small, old town without an RE investor club, where everyone thinks you're the first of your kind? (Century 21 has lots of questions for me. I answer. They still look confused. They want follow-up meetings, more explanations another day...we really know what that means: I'm getting blown off). I plan to do follow up meetings, but stretch THEM out, stay in the game, be there for them if they ever "catch on." Guard and develop my reputation thoughtfully.
I'm figuring if I ask the questions right, about finding a lawyer, I'll fall into the answer eventually. It worked with other subjects often before.
Do we ask the first lawyer in a staged interview, a great set of questions? Right then! Who has a great set of questions to share, for interviewing lawyers?
Best to ya investors,
Alan
fearnsa,
If you suspect that everybody in the small town is of the same mind, you may have to pull out the map and expand your geography. How far are you to the county seat? Know anybody who knows somebody who's plugged into the grapevine there or knows somebody in places like the Recorder's office, Clerk of Courts/Prothonotary, Assessor's office?
In addition to the obvious (title companies), I would contact people like appraisers. Go to http://www.appraisalinstitute.org and see what appraisers are in striking distance of you. Go to http://www.martindalehubbel.com and do the same thing for attorneys. Network among the bankers, merchants, Rotary members, people who own either large properties or many properties--find out who represents them.
Depending on the type of investment (houses v. land v. commercial/retail/office), then architects, land planners, civil engineers, environmental consultants, industrial development corp people, builders & developers, RE licensees with expertise in some aspect of real estate like land or commercial.
Last but not least bartenders, barbers, etc. People who come in contact with lots of people every day.
If the person you talk to can't recommend an attorney, they may be able to give you names of people who can.
Nancy
Again fantastic. Lots of meat in that message. I'll check it all out. Thanks very much, Nancy!
Alan
I agree with your comment. Couple of links posted above are helpful and the poster above surely knows how to use search engines like Google, to get them.
Call the lawyer, say that you heard, or read, some good things about his or her practice, and ask what you'd have to do to get referrals to the three best attorneys in your area who have the expertise that you're looking for as related to real estate investing.
Now you should have the names of three more attorneys that you can call and get referrals from.
Keep
1. calling,
2. saying you heard something good and
3. asking for referrals
Until you start hearing the same names over and over again.
Schedule one-hour appointments with the top three candidates. Be prepared to pay for their time. They may be busy, so you should also be prepared to wait a few weeks for an appointment.
Introduce yourself and say:
4. you'll be happy to pay for his or her time,
5. you'd like to have a relaxed and candid discussion (you're probably scared and angry, but that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee),
6. you've heard some good things about him or her and need more information to make up your mind and
7. You'd like to talk to him or her to discuss the possibility of handling your case.
Ask:
8. What legal areas do you specialize in?
9. How many years have you practiced this specialty for?
10. How much experience do you have with real estate?
11. What do you like about your areas of practice?
12. How many people are in your office?
13. What is your office known for?
14. How many people in your office handle real estate related matters.
Give a brief factual rundown of your case.
Ask:
15. What are the pros and cons of my case?
16. What would be the expected outcome? If it's bad, remember to point out that our cause hasn't been heard in Federal Court yet, which takes Constitutional protections more seriously.
17. How much do you charge?
18. How do you expect to get paid?
19. What's your schedule like?
After the appointment, evaluate each attorney.
20. Were you rushed?
21. Were you handed over to a junior partner?
22. How much experience does he or she have with real estate related matters.
The most important key is I research any real estate attorney to see how many real estate transactions they have done.
Great advice John. You know I found my current litigation lawyer by following very much this plan. Except I used letters rather than phone calls. If you send a letter after step 7 and before an actual meeting in which you discuss your case then you also get to evaluate how prepared the attorney is for the meeting. You won't believe how often I've been to the meeting only to find that the attny never read the letter until I was sitting in his office. I actually had a couple of them open the envelope in front of me even though the letter had been mailed a week or two earlier!
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To my way of thinking this is incredibly inconsiderate. Suppose that after reading the letter the attny realized that this was not at all the kind of thing he does. Had he prepared in advance he could cancel the meeting-- perhaps with a recomendation of someone else to call. Instead I'd have trecked all the way to his office to find out this was not in his area of expertise. One of the big things I look for in an attny is his consideration of my time and value as a client.
This proceedure you have laid out for us in such a well-organized fashion works well no matter what kind of attorney you are trying to find
http://www.nas.com/c4m/finding_a_good_attorney.html
is from some guys who recommend a remarkably similar approach, and they are trying to avoid paternity lawsuits!
Anyway, thanks for the comment.